Podcast: The Plant-Forward Revolution: Eating for Health and Planet with Vanessa Sturman

Introduction

Are you tired of diet culture's endless restrictions and conflicting nutrition advice? In this game-changing episode, health coach Vanessa Sturman is about to flip the script on everything you thought you knew about eating well.

Join us as we dive deep into three revolutionary concepts:

1. How plants can be your secret weapon for optimal health, without sacrificing flavor or satisfaction.

2. Why 'diet' is a dirty word, and how balanced nutrition actually works.

3. The surprising connections between your food choices, personal wellness, and global sustainability.

Whether you're a fitness enthusiast, a curious eater, or someone who's tried every diet under the sun, this conversation will transform how you think about food forever. Get ready to eat smarter, feel better, and make a positive impact—one plant-powered bite at a time.

Transcription of Podcast

Dr Orlena (00:01.056)
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Fit and Fabulous with me, Dr. Orlena. I am super excited today. We have a fabulous guest, Vanessa Sturman. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Vanessa Sturman (00:10.222)
Thank you so much for having me. I remember we did a fabulous live too long ago, so it's so great to be chatting again.

Dr Orlena (00:17.494)
And this is so much better to do it on a podcast because then, you know, we can share it and all these other places and so many more people get to hear it. Whereas I think sometimes lives just get hidden a little bit. But today we are going to talk all about plant-based, vegan, plants, some more. Do you want to start off just by telling people a little bit about yourself and what it is you do?

Vanessa Sturman (00:39.35)
Yes, thank you. So I am Vanessa Semmon. I'm a transformational health coach. I'm also an award-winning speaker. So I'm regularly featured in the media, places like Sky News, BBC Radio, talking about delicious, healthy eating, easy ways to get healthy foods into your life, plant-based eating, vegan eating, and also just really making sure everyone can achieve great performance and a healthy weight without ever starting again. So I'm not just about how to build in more plants. It's very much

what should our nutrition education actually be? That is often the huge stumbling block to people getting healthy. There's all this advice, which I'd love to go into. Well, just cut out sugar and everything will be all right. We have to go into that later because it's my bugbear at the moment. And I'm here to say, how can we take small steps within the hectic lifestyle that take away the guilt, build back in the celebration and just help you thrive? So I have clients who...

want to lose weight and never diet again. I've got clients who are pre-diabetic, type 2 diabetic, even just people just dealing with a lot of body pain, people who just want to perform better and just want to build it into their life. So I'm really like the how-to person no matter what your dietary preference.

Dr Orlena (01:51.606)
Perfect, fabulous. And we are very aligned in what we teach. And thank you so much for spending some time with us. So let's start at the beginning and have a think about, well, why plants? Like, why are you somebody who likes to talk about plants? I always talk about the cabbage crown and saying, who's got the cabbage crown today? Why did you decide to go the plant route?

Vanessa Sturman (02:15.246)
So I still also sort of challenge this a bit, I was saying this before, that even though I am plant-based, I encourage everyone just to build in more healthy foods into their life. And just to clarify, by the way, first of all, what plants are, because when people hear the word plant, they think salad. And I want to reassure you, I am not actually eating salad every day. And plants include your nuts, your seeds, your grains, your root vegetables, your fruits, your regular vegetables, beans, lentils, tofu.

It also includes anything made from plants or any of those ingredients. you can make, I'm actually in my kitchen, so maybe I will actually show you and I can't resist. I made this big baked oats last night. So I call this my breakfast cake because I want to feel like I'm eating cake for breakfast. That's plants. That's plants. That is made from a mix of oats, chia seeds, dates, things like that. So just to clarify, that is plants. Now, why do we want to eat?

Dr Orlena (02:57.43)
Wow.

Vanessa Sturman (03:12.478)
more plants. First of all, most people are not eating enough plants. And I want to get rid of this concept that plants are for people who are vegan, vegetarian, plant based. This is something we should all be building into our nutrition no matter what. there's some terrible movements of obsessions with cutting out carbs and people spreading misinformation about plants not being good for you. They are part of a balanced diet. We need to eat more and more plants. So plants contain fiber.

They are even in nuts and seeds. People think of fiber again. There's always that in my vegetables. That is across all plants. Now, fiber does so many incredible things. For a start, it's only one in 10 of us that are even getting enough fiber. Okay, so everyone bangs on about gut health, right? And I know you know all this, but I'm gonna talk about it for everyone else as well. So, look, very simple. And you're gonna get some doctors who are like proper gut health specialists. I'm just gonna give a small lowdown.

Dr Orlena (04:01.578)
Yeah, do it, do it.

Vanessa Sturman (04:09.944)
But we want to maintain this lovely population of good gut bacteria in our gut. And we want a big diversity of them as well. And we need to feed them. Now often you'll see your soul probiotics. That's the good gut bacteria themselves. We want to feed these good gut bacteria. And they feed off fiber. They feed off fiber. that's something that very few, more and more people know this.

but I do talks in all sorts of places, corporations, universities, and I always ask the question, who knows what they feed off? And many, many people don't know. It's harder to bottle up as well. Now they need, to be fair, a diversity of fiber. So we need to be a diversity of these plants to feed our good gut bacteria. And having good gut health relates to our digestion, our immunity, our focus.

different things, our hormones, many of our hormones are made in the gut, that's very very important. So that's a huge reason we want to be eating more plants. Now when it comes to weight management, here's something that's really really fantastic, again we hear and I know you're we talked so much about this in terms of weight management, I know you're on the same page, that of course in order to lose weight we need to be in a calorie deficit. We need to eat less calories than we're burning.

But that is also another piece of advice that we need new ones for. Because you could fill up on all your calories for the day by eating several pieces of cake. That's always my go-to example because I love cake. That's not particularly helpful. You're going to be hungry later. And it's going to be hard to get in that calorie deficit. But when we're eating foods that aren't very filling, it becomes a lot easier. Now, when we fill out our plate with these foods full with fiber,

we get fuller quicker, we can actually reduce those cravings. And there's all sorts of ways that fibre helps with this. But it's very important to know that when we fill out with that fibre, especially things like beans and lentils, you know, adding

Dr Orlena (06:06.272)
Hooray for beans and lentils! I just have to put that little cheer in.

Vanessa Sturman (06:12.57)
When I say this is really simple habits as well here with the fiber, so don't think, okay, I'm gonna think about fiber in the new year. Okay, fiber will be my thing in the new year. now, think how cheap a tin of lentils is. Right, you can get a 35 piece. This time with the cheapest food. And I had a client the other night who did one of my single sessions, one of my power hours where people get, they get quick results, not by magic, but by literally adding some of these things in consistently and going, yeah, I'm now much more full and that works and my gut health is better.

And this person was using meals from one of those meal recipe kit deliveries. Nice meals, but she said, I've never really been full from one of these. And I just said, well, you can just add things to this meal. If it makes your life easier, still use the recipe kit. Add a few veg, because we want to get more greens in, and add some beans into the mix. And she messaged me after an hour or so after the session, and she'd done that action. And she said, this is literally the first time I've been full for a meal.

in so long and I've never been full from one of these recipe kit meals. That was so easy and cheap. So, you know, it doesn't have to be complex and you do not have to be a nutritional scientist to be able to do this stuff. keeps you wonderfully full. These foods, these plants are full of various micronutrients as well. So full of lots of vitamins and minerals, things that we need for our body as well to stay healthy. So you're just increasing.

getting those into your body, which is really, really fantastic. And we know that these foods are linked to lowered risk of disease. We know that eating more beans and lentils can lower our risk of things like type 2 diabetes and heart disease. know that the beans are...

Dr Orlena (07:51.415)
In general, was one study that said if you eat a portion of lentils and legumes a day, it decreases your risk of dying from whatever cause anything.

Vanessa Sturman (07:58.734)
Exactly, well maybe not from being hit by a but yes yes yes yes! We've got to put some caveats out there as well but yes, 100 % you know all cause mortality so this is really really really important and you know the thing is is that so many people are coming down with things like you know pre-diabetes, type 2 diabetes and of course there's some genetic components that a lot of it is to do with the food we eat and our lifestyle.

And it can be easily, say easily, I know it's not easy for everyone, everyone in a slightly different situation, but these steps are easier than you think. Like, I'm gonna add those lentils into that meal, the cheap ones from the tin. So, so many reasons that we wanna be doing this, reducing our risk of, know, biggest killers, heart disease, even lowering blood pressure. It's incredible seeing someone after just six weeks doing this work and blood pressure's lower. There's lots of reasons for that. You know, we've got antioxidants that are in plant foods as well.

that protects ourselves, but that can also help with things like our blood pressure. So it is just unbelievable what can happen, reducing our cholesterol, helping with our skin. Everyone wants to look good as well. These foods can also help with our skin health. There's a lot of research into how it reduces aging. Really, really, really important.

Dr Orlena (09:12.054)
Fabulous, fabulous. And I am totally with you on the plants and think, in my mind, I kind of think when every time we eat, we've got an option to eat something potentially that is doing us damage. Obviously it depends on what you're eating or something which is full of antioxidants and fiber, which is going to benefit our health and they're tasty. And once you get used to eating them, they're tasty and delicious and easy. In a nutshell, get my pun there, in a nutshell,

Vanessa Sturman (09:36.322)
Yeah, totally.

Dr Orlena (09:41.824)
Plants are healthy for you and they're gonna help you lead a long and vital life for so many reasons and avoiding so many different diseases. Now taking it a step further, I know that you're vegan and I know that not everybody is ready to be vegan, but why that step further, why vegan?

Vanessa Sturman (09:59.778)
Yeah, finally, you may go Vanessa, it's not working at all, but I try and hide that I'm vegan. You might be like, you've failed. Now the reason I do that is of course, it's, and I do go to talks at a lot of vegan festivals and events and I get pulled onto the news to talk about vegan issues. However, because I'm here promoting health, I am here trying to help everyone just make the step.

they need to take for their health. And sometimes what can happen is if people see a goal that is too far away or a goal they don't even want, sometimes they do nothing. Okay, sometimes they do absolutely nothing. And that is not what I want. I am here to help everyone improve their health. I'm here to help our planet. And I'll talk more about how that relates as well. And you my journey started 20 years ago when I had a binge eating disorder. And I decided to get better. And that's how I started looking at real evidence when it came to nutrition and really understanding balanced eating.

Dr Orlena (10:38.176)
Yeah.

Vanessa Sturman (10:58.83)
So I've spent 10 years of my life actually being healthy and non-dieting as it were, not vegan or plant-based. And I learned so much during that time, but I still apply now, which is why I work with people whether they're vegan or not. And then I went vegan nine, 10 years ago. vegan is actually not to do with diet. It's not actually to, even though it becomes part of the food life, it's an ethical stance. It's an ethical stance.

that we do not harm other living beings as far as is possible. Right? So if the anesthetic has been tested on animals, you take the anesthetic and you get that operation. You don't mess about. Okay? It's as far as is possible. We'd be sensible. And I went vegan because I found out what was happening to animals. I found out how they were being treated. I found out that pigs were being gassed in chambers and having a horrible torture of death. I learned that, know, pigs are being kept in these...

tiny pens they can't even move from. I learned about the very short lives animals have even though people think they're having longer lives. And I was just deeply upset, appalled and decided I wasn't going to be part of that. And that is why vegans are vegan, you know, so it also applies to we don't go to zoos, don't go to aquariums and

everyone who's vegan should be doing this. We extend this to everyone. You know, this is to humans, we are all beings, we don't harm other living beings as far as is possible. So I looked at that industry and that's why I decided that I would not be consuming animal products, meat, dairy, eggs, fish and honey. That is my particular choice and the reason, like I said, I don't necessarily, when I'm helping people with nutrition, insist that other people do that at all, is that you can still have some of those products and be healthy.

for a start, but also I want people to progress, not, like I said, sort of go for this goal that they may not be there with. Now, the other thing is also about the planet, very importantly with the planet. So animal agriculture is one of the biggest causes of climate change and deforestation. And what is really, really shocking is that most of the biomass of animals on the planet, only 4 % of those are wild animals now, 4%. About 37 % is human.

Dr Orlena (13:17.046)
Wow.

Vanessa Sturman (13:19.49)
and the rest is farmed animals. Now that is a huge, huge pressure on our planet. We have to chop down lots of forest to grow plants to feed the animals. Those animals have got to be watered as well. Those plants, mostly we have to use lots of pesticides on those. We've got to transport them. The ecological footprint is colossal and we are in a climate emergency.

I learned about this, I learned that we were killing our oceans. So if you think about the amount of waste a dairy farm produces, I'm going to get the figure wrong. So I'm not going to give a figure because I'm going to get this wrong. But if you think about all these animals, all these cows and everything, they all poo basically, they all produce loads of waste. That waste has got to go somewhere. You know, that is destroying our oceans and it causes something called nitrogen dead zones in the ocean. So you've got these big areas of the ocean where this poo basically

comes out into the ocean, it's gotta go somewhere and it kills everything in the vicinity. Okay? So we are destroying so many parts of our planet. We are hurting our wild animals as well. We are destroying their habitat and we are decreasing biodiversity everywhere with what we're doing. So we really do need to decrease and that does not mean we all have to go fully plant-based. And even David Attenborough said, if we all have more plant-forward ways of eating, and I think you can talk about this plant-forward way of eating because no one has to be 100 % anything.

He said we would use about a quarter of the land we currently use for agriculture if we did that. So we have the evidence. It's been there for a really, really long time. It's about being sensible in how we do it. So there were those points. I went animals, environment. I was already very plant, say very plant forward, because I had been looking at nutrition for so long, building into my life. I was eating so many plants, having really balanced plates of food. But, and I know we are going to talk about protein,

I was very much kind of no, no, no, no, no, need my meat, need my fish for my protein, you know, and you know, big reason for that for me was having had such terrible vegan and vegetarian meals. And I really want to acknowledge this with people as well. They were not filling. And they made me think, well, I'm never going to be able to have even like one fully plant based meal. you know, because it's not filling enough. And we need to talk about how when you're building in more plants that they're just the

Vanessa Sturman (15:43.502)
advice just eat more plants. Of course it can be helpful and people can go and grab more fruit. Yeah 100 % these small steps are really helpful but when we're talking about helping people with their nutrition education overall we've got to help them eat in a balanced way and that's what I'm here for whether you're vegan or not.

Dr Orlena (15:58.548)
Yeah, and I think, you know, another thing to, before we talk about protein is eating out. And I think it's really difficult to eat out. mean, here in Spain, we have very limited restaurants. I hardly ever eat out to be honest, but when you do eat out, it is meat or fish. And in Spain, there often isn't even a vegetarian option, which makes it even more difficult.

quite often it's like, you can have a salad. And this is one of my bug bears. The salad is always a tiny salad. And you think, well, but everyone else has got these giant meals and I've got a tiny plate of salad. Why can't I have a giant plate of salad?

Vanessa Sturman (16:34.894)
Yes, yes. we're back to the salad. We're back to the salad. Look, no shade on the salad. I do also love salad. But is it what I want in a restaurant? Absolutely not. Leave me alone. Eating out, mean, eating out in general is, you know, we know the food when we eat out isn't as healthy. We know that it is going to be high in sugar, salt, fat to make it taste better. And there's so many things we can do at home to lower that sort of thing. But when we eat out, I am very much about normal restriction.

you know, even if you're eating things out that are not so healthy, we need to eat out, we need to have fun with that. When it comes to more plant-based options, yeah, it can be very different depending on what country you're in. You I live in London, I'm very, you know, very lucky here, there's all sorts of wonderful, fabulous restaurants. One of the things I'll say that can be helpful, I don't know how much of this is in Spain, but going to certain cuisines, and this is also wonderful, is that any cuisine can be made plant-based.

with taking food from different countries. I've worked with people from all over the world and helped them A, make their food healthier, you know, instead of going, right, you have to now cook this completely new recipe. So let's look at your favorite foods. Right, this is how you can adapt them and make them healthier. One of my favorite things is like, yeah, oil free, so lower calorie garlic bread that you can do in the air fryer with stock and garlic. You know, there's all these, you know, things that you can do, even if you've switched from butter to oil, doing it oil free is really going to help with your weight management as well. And it's not going to...

add hundreds of calories having that little bit of garlic bread, for example. But looking at different cuisines, I say, you know, some of the Southeast Asian cuisines, or Mexican, they're often very, very good for plant-based options. So they can be, you know, one that you can go to if there's no plant-based restaurants around. But I would just encourage everyone, you know, go and try some of these options. You know, go and, again, because this also helps in terms of your impact on the planet.

sort of stressing about, my goodness, have I now got to go, you know, whatever. No, like start just reducing those animal products, which will also reduce your risk of chronic disease and all cause mortality, et cetera. You know, go and try some of these different options. Go and do some research as well. Go and download the Happy Cow app that tells you where these really good options are. Just go onto Google and go onto Google Maps and just type in.

Vanessa Sturman (18:51.256)
vegan options or vegan restaurants and see what comes up. You know, it is there for you.

Dr Orlena (18:56.118)
Perfect, perfect. Now, the big protein question. So just explaining why we decided we wanted to talk about protein. I see so many people talking about protein at the moment. And the big message seems to be you have to eat loads of protein to lose weight, which obviously you have to eat enough protein. I'm not saying that people shouldn't eat protein. Yes, everybody needs to eat protein. But my issue with this is...

There seems to be such a big message about protein that people are so focused on protein and then forget about the vegetables. Whereas I think, yep, protein, but also vegetables. And how do we get enough protein if we're eating vegan? And on top of that, I see so many people saying, yeah, but meat protein is so much better for you than plant protein. So go on, give us your protein. Give us your protein.

Vanessa Sturman (19:44.942)
Yeah. Okay, so lots and lots of things there. First of all, it is completely right. Of course, we need protein. And one of the things that really frustrates me as well with this protein obsession is it it ignores everything else. Now, again, I these are the two things that the things are like, in order to lose weight, just give up sugar and focus on protein. It drives me absolutely mad. Yes, we need protein. Protein speeds up signals to our brain that we're getting full. So yeah, of course, it can really, really help with weight management. It's the building blocks of our body. We need protein.

But the problem is, we think protein only comes from meat and eggs and fish basically. That's what the, some of this misinformation the influences think. And there's also these myths, you can't get all the protein that you need from plants. So first of all, no one food is pure anything.

Potato is not pure, just complex carbs. It's also got fiber in there, it's got micronutrients in there. Everything has got other things in. We know beans and lentils are a good source of protein. They do also have carbohydrates in and they've got a ton of fiber in. Meat does not just have protein in. And this is where it's really important. So what people often do when they go running for it, I've got to more more protein. You could be having a source of protein that has a load of saturated fat.

cholesterol, putting you more at risk of things like heart disease, type 2 diabetes, insulin resistance and many many other things. We know red meat is a type 2 carcinogen, right? So you are not just eating pure protein. Yes, it's got protein in that's going to be helpful. It's got some vitamins in it as well. Nothing is just one thing. We've got to look at each food in their right. Just because as well, a food, say nuts, have protein in.

But if you're trying to get all your protein from nuts, you would well over consume calories and you consume too much fat because they are a great fat source. So we've really got to look at each food and what they provide. So it can be helpful to put things into the categories of complex carbs, protein, as long as you know, that thing is not that 100 % protein and some things have got more protein than others. All plants are protein. That's what's really, really important. All plants are protein and there is this nip.

Vanessa Sturman (22:06.07)
of this protein combining, you're only going to get a complete protein if you pair beans with a grain. That was actually perpetuated in the magazine, believe, in like Vogue in something like the 80s. And it's somehow just like perpetuated. And, you know, all plants are a complete protein, but there's different amounts of amino acids in each plant. So you cannot just eat one plant and get all the protein you need 100%. That is not true. And we need that. There's so many reasons we need diversity.

diversity of fibro to feed all good bacteria, diversity of micronutrients, diversity of different amino acids, keep the diversity. Then, the other thing is someone cannot just serve you a plate of plants and say, well, know, all plants are protein. That's also not helpful. It's not helpful because it's not balanced. And one of the things that really put me off before I was plant-based was getting served this food that was so unbalanced and, you know, didn't have enough of a protein source as well.

Okay, so it can go both ways and this is where nutrition knowledge is so important. So, so important that we can put together balanced meals. So some plants have much higher amounts of protein in things like your tofu, tempeh, edamame beans, everyone loves a bit of Wagamama's bit of a Japanese restaurant edamame beans. That's where you're get some much higher amounts of protein. Protein powders, some people get all processed stuff. Protein powders for everyone can be excellent as quick.

things that we can do, I actually am going to get these flippin oats again, baked oats. I actually put a hemp protein powder in there as well, know, chucked lots of different things in just just, you know, making life easier instead of having to get everything out the cupboard every day. So we need some of these foods that we know are higher protein as well. Beans and lentils, fantastic source of protein. But like I said, they also are a really good source of fibre. And they have some complex carbs, they are not as high protein.

as things like your your tofu and your tempeh, which are made from soybeans, they're not as high as that. So we need that real range. You're going to get protein in vegetables, but again, you cannot eat a load of fruit and expect to get all the protein you need. So this is where balancing our plate, a load of fruit or veg, decent protein source, our beans, our lentils, bit of tofu in their complex carbohydrates are

Vanessa Sturman (24:27.438)
grains, our root vegetables, et cetera. That's what we want to get in. And some really good fats as well, our avocado, our nuts, our nut butter, which also have, you know, we know that nuts have protein in, but like I said, if you are eating nuts to get your protein, that is going to make it a struggle to stay a healthy weight because they're very calorie dense. There's a lot of calories in a small space. They are very good for you, but we don't want to eat that whole bag of nuts at once.

Dr Orlena (24:52.278)
I have to put my hand up and say I do. I always eat the whole bag.

Vanessa Sturman (24:54.574)
It's very easy and...

weight and still eat very very calorie dense foods and obviously it's about staying in a calorie deficit so it's not the case of you know it's not you know super simple or saying that's going to make you put on weight it's only going to make you put on weight if you know if you're not in a calorie deficit or you're eating more calories than you burn but you know i work with a lot of people who are trying to lose weight as do you do you as well and so again it's more about the knowledge the knowledge if you are you know if you've got one of these very calorie dense foods and you're struggling to lose weight and you're eating a load of that every day

you this is where you could, yeah, you could look at.

Dr Orlena (25:30.774)
it's something to look at. Yeah, totally. And I think it's, you know, I think that also leads onto like thinking about protein and where you're getting protein from. It's also important to look at what you're aiming to do. So I've got a 16 year old son and he is at that stage where he's like protein obsessed. Why? Because he wants to build muscles. Now I keep telling him he probably doesn't have to really focus on protein so much, but he's doing his thing. Whereas if you're somebody who's older,

and thinking, okay, well, I do want to lose weight and I do want to get strong, but I also really want to avoid heart disease and diabetes, then you're in a slightly different situation and thinking, okay, I might want to be more careful of eating meat-based protein because I don't want that saturated fat that's gonna come with it as well. So it does kind of depend on the situation, I think.

Vanessa Sturman (26:20.334)
I just want to say a little bit about that as well is that, there are so many athletes, bodybuilders who are building muscle on plants. And the other thing is, is that when we're younger, we don't think so much about disease or heart disease, and we can't feel those plaques building in our arteries as well. And, you know, that's why people generally get a heart attack, you know, generally a lot later in life, right? Because it's that buildup. And so it's being really mindful of that sort of thing as well.

Dr Orlena (26:29.707)
Yeah.

Vanessa Sturman (26:50.188)
The other thing is just thinking about your performance overall. And I didn't mention that there's so many benefits of plants, but just talking about, you know, your son, for example, who is looking to build muscle plants, there's lots of plants that can really help increase blood flow as well. It's a reason they can help with performance, they can decrease your recovery time as well, especially antioxidants during that protecting your cells. So there's lots of advantages to building implants, when we you know, at anyone performance in anywhere, I just mean performance in the gym, I mean, performance at work.

in your relationships. You we want to be alert and happy and performing well in our lives overall. And plants really, really help with that. I think even though of course it is so important, you know, work with athletes and sports people and marathon runners and boxers. And of course protein is so, so important, but it's just one part of that balance to keep them really, really healthy. And even though exercise can really reduce your risk of disease, we should be moving. That's so important. You are not immune.

to type 2 diabetes, heart disease, various diseases, you are not immune to that because you are working out a lot. Even though you're reducing your risk and it's so important, your nutrition is so, so key in that. I do know people who've been amazing sports people who come down with type 2 diabetes, know everyone does, we know that, that we cannot just use exercise to protect ourselves.

Dr Orlena (28:12.778)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And last protein question. So this protein question, we were debating highly processed foods. So we all know we don't have have conversation about highly processed foods being bad. Although how we categorize highly processed foods is an interesting conversation. So texturized vegetable protein, which is basically in my understanding where they take like soil or something, can they take out the strands of protein and then they sort of squish it up again and...

Vanessa Sturman (28:15.565)
Yes!

Dr Orlena (28:41.266)
sell it to you as this dehydrated stuff, which is essentially protein that you can use to add to your soups and stews and things like that. So it is processed, but where does it come in terms of red meat? Like red meat comes with lots of saturated fat. So where does this come, where does this fit in the puzzle?

Vanessa Sturman (29:02.67)
is a great question and this was actually one of the things I was talking about that I knew specifically just about this meat. what happens is, and this is really really important, we've always got to look at the science. So what people often do is go well my logic says, you know no one's logic actually matters unfortunately, we can hypothesize, we've always got to look at the evidence. Of course we always need more research and evidence. So first of all ultra-processed there's such a range of those and what has also happened is very

you know, easy, simple black and white messaging on the internet is just cut out the sugar and the ultra processed foods, you know, again, not so helpful. So we have got in the ultra processed categories, we've got things like plant based meals, we have got these plant based meat alternatives. And a lot of the studies we've got have shown that they can have positive health outcomes. Now, I am not saying that something like a Beyond Burger, I am not heralding that as a literally a health food. I am not. I still think

go for the fruits, the vegetables, the nuts, the seeds, the beans, grains, et cetera. That is where we all want to be eating more of. Okay, but it's also, everything's about scale. So we love, know, influences get a lot of attention with the, this is good and this is bad. That is not a helpful way of looking at things. And our lives are not like that as well. And people are very busy. There is sometimes a question of what is the best I can do in this situation without being perfect?

And what is the alternative? So giving people some shortcuts that stop them going to McDonald's, for example, is really, positive and can save them money, you know? So looking at those plant-based meats, and let's do a direct comparison that we can do with, say, a beef burger. So first of all, the beef burger is a type 2 carcinogen, whereas the plant-based one does not categorize as that. In general, there is less saturated fat.

in the plant-based ones, but there is the odd one that, you know, almost tips it the same with the saturated fat, but yet all slightly different. But most of them, you'll get less saturated fat. You will get zero dietary cholesterol with the plant-based one. You will actually get some fiber with the plant-based one. You will get more salt with the plant-based one, but many people add salt to the steak or the beef burger.

Vanessa Sturman (31:24.782)
So that sometimes might come out very similar. So what we have is looking at it overall, you could be much better off with a plant-based one. But those plant-based ones might be made, have a load of added coconut oil in, hence why with some of them, they've got high amounts of saturated fat. I am not saying, like I said, that go and have these and you'll be super healthy, but they're a great switch. They can be a great switch, great switch to the environment as well, the animals.

but we know on the health basis, they could be really, really helpful for people, especially people who were trying to reduce their risk of disease. So the other thing is, what are you having them with? So if someone went out and got four of those burgers, it's only because I saw someone do this once, and put four of those burgers with buns on a plate and was like, this is my dinner, you said it was better than, you know, having a beef burger, right? It's also not a balanced meal. Have this as part of your meal, make up a plate, I'm going to go with the salad.

get a nice salad, maybe add some roasted vegetables, add some lovely sweet potato chunky fries that you've done in the air fryer or in the oven or whatever you want to do with a load of herbs and spices, get a hummus on there, maybe a little guacamole and have one of those burgers as part of an entire meal. That when we just focus down sometimes into one ingredient, it's not always helpful. Hence why I work with people who have all sorts of different diets. And if they have some animal products in their diet, doesn't...

I want to help them their plate as much as possible with great, fantastic, healthy foods so that they are satisfied, not craving foods, especially at night. It all comes into the bigger picture.

Dr Orlena (33:02.26)
Yes, absolutely. And you didn't answer the texturized vegetable protein.

Vanessa Sturman (33:05.406)
sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So there's lots of different types of some of these more convenience protein and they are all going to be processed to different levels. The other thing is what else has gone in? And I don't think anything else has been gone in to a lot of those items and bits have been maybe taken out and then you rehydrate them. So that's going to be a great option. They're going to be pretty

low fat, they're not going to have added all this, you know, coconut oil and extra things to it. Whereas you're going to get some of those products that are going to be a lot higher in saturated fat. So the textural vegetable protein is really fantastic. Brilliant to put into like a bolognese and add, you know, do half fat, half lentils or something like that, you know. So I absolutely love those products. And they also just make life easier. And I think that's the thing is, with convenience, that's really important. Because like I said, it stops people going for something a lot less

healthy.

Dr Orlena (34:02.048)
Yeah, and I have to say, I don't use them very often, but with my ravenous 16 year old who is looking for plant-based, he eats a lot of beans. So, you when he started his gym journey, he was protein, protein, protein, and he still is protein, protein, but at least he is now plant-based protein mostly. Although, you know, having kids, they are slightly carnivorous. Well, not carnivorous, but they really, it seems to be that what kids really want to eat is...

Vanessa Sturman (34:20.109)
Yeah.

Dr Orlena (34:30.792)
sugar and meat essentially. our last section. What other pet peeves do you have of messaging that you see on the internet that you just want to bury your head in the sand and go, why do people say these things?

Vanessa Sturman (34:33.901)
Yeah, good.

Vanessa Sturman (34:49.942)
so, so many and we don't have a day, but maybe one day we will do a conference to some. Okay, so the first one, like overall, I think is super restrictive messaging. Super restrictive messaging. It is really important to remember that anyone can in inverted commas get you a result. And it's whether that result is sustainable and healthy, that's the really important thing to look at. So when someone says just follow this and you'll lose weight.

super restrictive and you're massively restricting your calories, yeah, you're going to lose weight. And there's these diets, especially things like the keto diet, where you're really cutting out complex carbs, and you're going very high in protein, high in fat, especially saturated fat. And you can lose muscle on those diets, can lose a lot of water, looks like you your weight will come down, but also you want massively restricting calories. You know, so that's also something to remember that

we do want to focus on, say you want to lose weight, yes, you do need to be in a calorie deficit, but we want to make that easy, we actually want to be healthy at the same time. So I think when people say, right, this magically works, you know, you've got to have that eye to look at it and go, well, yeah, you're just restricting calories. And actually, if someone just bounces back, and I get people coming to me all the time, I've tried every diet under the sun, it's like they do not work because they're so restrictive. And when I say restrictive, they might A, cut out

entire food groups that are very healthy, like complex carbohydrates, that we need fibre to feed our gut. Our body actually lives off glucose. I'm not saying that we should be downing sugar, but those complex carbohydrates are so, so important. They keep us satisfied. And we see so many people just bouncing back and wanting to eat things when we massively restrict ourselves. And I know there's a binge eating disorder.

you massively restrict yourself, your body bounces back and just goes, right, I'm to eat everything in sight. And then those people end up putting on more weight, get even more messed up. there's restriction of healthy foods, I can't stand. And then also restriction of unhealthy foods. That is also not helpful. And that's where that whole thing of just, just stop eating sugar. Lots of reasons that that's not helpful. First of all, first of all, I love cakes and that's not gonna happen anyway. You're not gonna get me with that one. But the thing is, is that the more we say to ourselves, we can't have something.

Vanessa Sturman (37:03.98)
the more we want it. And also what messaging like that does, it doesn't acknowledge other things that may be harmful. So if you're talking about a packet of biscuits, and you can still eat biscuits, by the way, they are not just full of sugar. They are also full of things like saturated fat, which we know can increase, you know, can add towards insulin resistance and pre-diabetes and heart disease. So there's so many other things going on than just sugar. And then people get scared of fruit. You know, and that's the other thing that I hear, you know,

Exactly, kills me and people and don't get fruit is fantastic for weight loss. It is high water content. I always want to go for a massive fruit bowl just to grab something from it. But I can't eat the orange with the skin. we'll we'll we'll we'll leave that high water content, fiber, low calorie density, so bulking out so that that again that baked oats that I showed you earlier, and I had a load of fruit for the breakfast as well and some other other bits into the bowl. It lowers the calorie density of that overall bowl so you get

Dr Orlena (37:34.647)
You

Vanessa Sturman (38:03.022)
fuller on less calories and you even hear some people say, okay, fine, well, you can have berries, which are already good for you, but no other fruit because they're too high in sugar. It is so confusing for people. So people are cutting out these healthy foods and then they get really upset and restrictive about the unhealthy foods. A bit of unhealthy food, a bit of that cake, those biscuits, eight lifers for living. I love having a dessert. Go and enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with it. And if you are...

still in that calorie deficit, then you don't even need to count calories, but you can have that piece of cake every now and then, you don't have to have it on a cheat day. You know, I also saw, online, this guy showing how he ate 18,000 calories on a cheat day. As a previous binge eater, I know exactly how that's possible. My problem was the promotion of it, right? And there's no shame if you've done that, if you are in that situation.

But the point was, was how much he must be restricting himself during the week. Okay, that was the problem that I had with it. this endorsement of cheat days, it's like, you're, what are you cheating on? What are you not enjoying in your other days? And you're having, you this idea that it's a naughty day. Those foods you're eating, you can build into your regular life. And what often happens to people on these cheat days is they can sometimes completely overeat as well.

and end up not reaching their healthful weight goals, but it's also this ultra restriction. I'm not allowed to have X, Y, Z. And we need to go the other way around. We need to say, right, let's build in healthy, great foods that really reduce our cravings. You know, and that's another thing that I hate. just stop eating at X, Y, Z time. How is that helpful if I get hungry after that time? I am soon just going to break. You know, of course it is helpful to plan.

so that we're not having dinner at 10 o'clock, but simply saying, don't eat after X, Y, Z time is not helpful to someone if they've not planned and if they're actually hungry, that's gonna put them in a worse position.

Dr Orlena (40:05.686)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Yes, and I 100 % agree with you. And I think for me, when I think about restriction, one of the things I just think is just flip it around a bit. So instead of thinking about restriction, think about all the amazing, wonderful, healthy things that you can eat that nourish your body and...

That might be, I know we've got Thanksgiving coming up for our American friends, that might be just eating all out on Thanksgiving. Or it might be, hey, do you know what, I've made some healthier desserts for Thanksgiving and I want to do something slightly different. And actually there's so many healthier things that, you you can create healthy options. And I think once you make that switch to eating healthier, you enjoy them more and more. And as you keep saying, your cravings disappear.

Vanessa Sturman (40:37.166)
Titan.

Vanessa Sturman (40:55.811)
Yeah.

Dr Orlena (40:56.008)
Actually, I find that so many people, you know, they will cut out sugar, you know, they're drinking Coca-Cola or something, and then they cut out, they focusing on healthy, delicious foods, and then they try their Coca-Cola and they're like, my goodness, it's disgusting, it's so sweet. Like, what was I doing drinking this? And you just get used to it. And I think that's where a lot of people get scared because they're like, what's life like without sugar? I'm gonna feel deprived the whole time, but it's not about deprivation, it's about...

Vanessa Sturman (41:10.126)
Yeah?

Vanessa Sturman (41:25.056)
to know.

Dr Orlena (41:25.819)
nourishing your body, looking after your body and doing that in a way that also supports your health and wellness.

Vanessa Sturman (41:31.254)
Yeah, and I'm just on all of that because that is so absolutely right as well. And you know, this whole restrictive messaging and other reasons it's really unhelpful is you get people really confused then going, well, we can't eat anything now. Of course, that's not true. But I see where that theme comes from. you get these influences going into supermarkets. The supermarkets are dangerous place to be unlike well, actually, it's not loads of fruit and veg and cheap beans and lentils. And there's

plant-based Ben and Jerry's if I want to treat them. There's so much in the supermarket, there's even silk and tofu. So that's another little tip. You can blend silk and tofu into soups and make your soup have more protein very, very easily. Supermarkets are great, what I, of course there's a lot of unhealthy food in those places. You need to know where to go, which is where education comes in. But these influences, you just literally go, that's got food dying. That's why everyone's obese and dying. It's like, people are not obese and dying because of some food die.

I'm not saying go and eat loads of food, die, but you know, we're given these constant fear messages and restriction and it's when we add in. So when I work with people, what they love, and I'm sure you do very, very similar as well, is I don't tell them they can't eat anything. So if they're like, God, I just drink loads of Coca-Cola. I'm like, nah, leave that. Leave that. Let's look at what we're putting in. Let's put in more fruit. That's gonna reduce your sugar cravings. Let's go that way round. Let's go the fun way round.

not the stop having this, stop having that. And I love it when people fill out their meals more, fill out their plates to what they're already doing so they can get results quickly. And then they go, didn't really fancy that. And you know, didn't really fancy that dessert. Sometimes I want it. And you know, I agree with you about healthier desserts. And I have a little plug. I've got a group called How to Get Plant Based. And I've got a whole bank of recipes of things like black bean, chocolate mousse is in there, healthier blondies and brownies.

all sorts of healthier treats that I do recommend cutting up and putting in the freezer as well. The idea is not to then eat the whole tray just because it's got plants in. But there's so many things and different alternatives that we can do.

Dr Orlena (43:37.802)
Yeah, it was my husband's birthday last week and I made him a chocolate cheesecake. It didn't have cheese in it. It was made with cashew nuts and coconut milk. But yes, absolutely. It wasn't like, my goodness, I can just eat all of this. It's like, no, it is almost like cake. It is almost like cheesecake. And it's a small pieces filling and full of saturated fat as well. So yeah, perfect. Perfect. Any last words of wisdom for us?

Vanessa Sturman (43:52.674)
Yeah, basically.

Vanessa Sturman (43:58.936)
Yes.

Vanessa Sturman (44:02.87)
I think what I want to encourage, try to get rid of the overwhelm, just moving away from labels and saying, how can I just build healthier, more balanced food into what I'm doing and taking it one step at a time. Yes, of course we need to do planning and that's another sort of area, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Make it small. that.

fruit onto your add some fruit and nuts onto your oats if that's what you're doing. If you're having bread and butter for breakfast or not having breakfast at all sometimes and then you get hungry later, you can pack it with you. You know, some toast with nut butter and some banana and fruit, know, little things like that. It is about abundance. It is about enjoyment. It does not have to look the same for everyone. And please, you know, see those red flags as well. If you're seeing influences simply

But you know, especially using the word toxic, or all the toxins all over the supermarket, or, you know, do not ever eat XYZ, you know, people being very, very black and white, please move away from that as well, because it is not helpful. And when it's super, super restrictive, and when someone's cutting out an entire food group, especially like complex carbs, you know, please have a look at that. So it's the small steps, the loving steps, the delicious steps and

There is, I want to get rid of this idea of the wagon. There is no wagon, I've fallen off the wagon. It's just life and it does not have to be perfect at all, but we can do the little things to help us. And if that means getting more takeaways for a bit and adding your own whole grain rice and lots of veg to it because you're stressed and it's difficult, that's not a failure, by the way, there's no failure and it doesn't mean anything. Flick and enjoy it is what I'll say. I love my local Thai takeaway.

Please just love and nourish yourself. It is not a race and it is not about cutting everything out at all. So add in, add in and don't worry about the labels.

Dr Orlena (46:01.642)
Progress over perfection.

Vanessa Sturman (46:03.438)
100 % and our habits, our health, I'll give you one more thing, know, our health is not made up of, and I don't, know, of you can go on a retreat, that's nice, but your health is not made up of, I'm gonna hit it for a week with loads of exercise and I'm gonna, again, another red flag detox, and often those weeks are very restrictive that people do. Our health is made up of the small habits. It is made up of the small habits and we want it to be majority healthy.

doesn't matter if the small bit isn't. So think about it like that. What can I be doing? It's easy, daily, consistent and not running off and going, I'll sort all my health out with some extreme week. So then that's important as we come up to Christmas and New Year and people will be being sold all sorts of resets and detoxes.

Dr Orlena (46:52.329)
And where can people find you?

Vanessa Sturman (46:54.466)
Cool. So on any social platform, if you type in just Vanessa Sturm, and then should be able to see my name on here, you'll find me on Instagram, probably under a different tag, because that sometimes changes. You'll find me on Facebook. You can go to and just add me as a friend as well on Facebook. You can join. thank you. Yes. Yeah. So you can join my group as well. How to go plant based and just drop me a DM if you need any help with anything.

Dr Orlena (47:11.064)
And I will leave links as well in the show notes as well. Perfect.

Dr Orlena (47:21.454)
Thank you so much for coming and chatting to us.

Vanessa Sturman (47:23.756)
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

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